Over the last three days, I exchanged a few e-mails with William Gatherer, who frequently comments on this site. We discussed the May 31st murder of George Tiller, an abortion doctor from Wichita, Kansas. You can read the New York Times story here.
This is not a post about abortion. I want to be clear about that. I don’t care if you’re pro-life or pro-choice. I don’t want to know and you don’t have to say. And there is no need to debate or attack either side to accomplish a discussion on this particular post.
What I am interested in discussing, however, is what possible rationale a pro-life supporter has in murdering a doctor - in a church nonetheless? Many pro-life groups were quick to distance themselves from the alleged shooter, but facts are starting to show that he was connected to at least one.
So can someone please explain this to me? You are pro-life and against abortion, which you say is murder, but you gun someone down in cold blood. And you murder someone in a church - which could be a whole other discussion by the way? I just don’t get it…
Murder is murder…period. I believe that this doctor is burning in Hell right now for the murders he has committed, but so will the evil person that murdered the doctor in cold blood. We may not like everything that occurs in our judicial system, but it is illegal to take the law into your own hands.
I don’t understand it either.
Murder is murder.
If the pro-life, anti-abortion people feel that abortions are murder, and then turn around and murder the doctors that perform abortions, what does that make them?
It makes them the same as the murderers that they hate.
As for anyone burning in hell, I don’t believe in hell or heaven, so no, I don’t believe that Tiller is burning in any kind of hell for what he’s done in his life.
Tiller did what his patients asked him to do, and what he was medically trained to do.
Doctors take a hippocratic oath to serve and protect their patients, and he did.
So what he did for his patients is none of anyone else business honestly.
No one else has the right to tell a woman what she can do with her body, and no one else has the right to tell a doctor how he can treat his or her patients.
Period.
I relly liked your response Kat. I can’t add anything to that.
Some people have a God-complex and think they can pass judgment on others. Obviously, some people take that to the extreme.
Some of those groups want to preach one thing but do another. Happens all the time with many watchdog groups.
I can’t explain their rationale. But I’ll tell you one thing. It doesn’t make sense. A life ended for a cause who will then disown the suspect. You cannot take the law into your own hands.
I too like Kat’s reply (but I believe in the afterlife) and Reforming Geek’s.
The rationale is easy: Extremists are always willing to except themselves from their own rules for the “greater good”.
Kat, you just opened up the whole debate CC was trying to avoid…
“No one else has the right to tell a woman what she can do with her body,” makes it sound like you’re talking about a tattoo or breast implants. The issue is not what a woman can do with her body, but if the fetus has a right to life on its own. The fetus is biologically an individual, so the argument is one of emotion against science. I’d rather not debate the issue, however, since CC has suggested this is not the place for it.
But I have to leave this piece of Darwin-tastic irony:
Federal law prohibits the abuse of a sea turtle egg, while a human fetus is free to be destroyed.
This reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw “Why do people kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?”
Heather, wow, that bumper sticker slogan is thought provoking.
I wasn’t debating abortion.
If you read my post, I said, No one else has the right to tell a woman what she can do with her body, and no one else has the right to tell a doctor how he can treat his or her patients.
Period.
That leaves what the woman does and what the doctor does, entirely open to your own imaginations and your own discussions.
If your thoughts went to abortions, which I’m sure they did, because that is what Dr. Tiller did at his office, then it is unavoidable.
I’m sorry CC, but the subject is unavoidable, and it really doesn’t matter which side of the debate any of us stand on.
Doctors in this country have a legal right to perform abortions.
Killing, murder, is not legal.
Women have a legal right to seek out abortions, and doctors have a legal right to perform them.
People however, do not have a legal right to seek out a doctor who performs abortions and shoot them down in cold blood because they perform a medical procedure.
Period.
Once everyone comes to grips with the laws of this country, we will al be better off.
I can certainly understand those who say:
“I would certainly never have an abortion, but who am I to say someone else shouldn’t be allowed to have one…”
Using that “logic”
“I would never shoot an abortion doctor, but who am I to say someone else shouldn’t be able to shoot one?”
We certainly don’t want to force our values upon someone else, right?
As I wander in with the can opener and see this can of worms on the shelf… I pick it up and start to open it… then think to myself what did I just do?
After reading the responses, Kat, I have to say, good posting.
NCD, I am glad that you would never shoot an abortion Dr.
My concern on this is that now that he is no longer able to convert oxygen to carbon dioxide, let alone practice, people who were taking a “safer” alternative are now forced to travel for such practice, or worse, take it into their own hands. It is a “medical procedure”, and as has already been established legal. Agree, or disagree, self “medication” for a procedure like this is not the best case scenario.
In addition, now it causes more attention to a topic that some love to debate, and others choose to ignore.
The issue here is that Hammurabi’s law of an Eye for an Eye is not the right way.
Don, the entire argument is that a human fetus is not a human and thus has no right to life in and of itself. The doctor is accepted as a human. Therefore, one can be killed and one cannot. Perfectly logical, save the determination of humanity…
William, be careful not to let a contradiction slip in there. What’s wrong with a woman giving herself the coat hanger treatment? As has apparently been established, it’s her body and not your place to say what is best.
But let’s look at the term “pro-life”. It is nothing more than an empty marketing label, just like “pro-choice”. The only purpose they serve is to lure the undecided fools in the middle one way or the other without said fools actually having to understand the debate.
As usual with these sorts of political crusades, they just point out blatant hypocrisy. Republicans tend to be pro-life, yet they also tend to support war and capital punishment. Democrats tend to be pro-choice, but they feel that choices that contradict their agendas should be eliminated, such as the choice to buy a gas guzzling SUV, or the choice of who you want to hire, or whether or not you want to donate your money to buy food, housing, and health care for people you don’t know.
As I’ve said before, we don’t even blink at hypocrisy anymore. I’m glad CC brought this one up.
I would certainly not put myself in the pro-life side of this discussion. I am and have always been anti-abortion.
I was merely showing the poor logic when people without backbones refuse to take a stance on an issue by saying “I would never do it, but who am I to impose my beliefs on someone else?” I’m sure that the human beings that are having their skulls pierced with hooks and having their brains sucked out of their heads (as part of a person’s “right to choose”) would prefer that I impose my beliefs on the doctors that are performing the murder and the mothers who have been conned into approving it.
Murder is wrong, but so far, since Roe V. Wade, an estimated 49 million human beings have been murdered in abortions by pro choice people…only 5 human beings have been murdered by anti-abortion groups.
Kat is right. Avoiding a debate on this topic is tough. Especially with Mr. Know-It-All, or, ah, I mean NeoConDon, always on the prowl.
PLEASE - everyone take a birth control pill and reeelax. I think the title of this says it all: Hypocrite
Sometimes, though, I imagine how things would be if Hitler were aborted, or Bin Laden, or…Paris Hilton?
…or Beethoven, or Leonardo da Vinci, or Ghandi. Maybe if Jefferson, Hancock, or Adams were aborted the U.S. would still be under the rule of England. Maybe if Lincoln was aborted we could still own slaves.
I found it funny when I heard one of the pro-choicers calling the guy who murdered the doctor a “terrorist.” But these same lefties are calling the terrorists that are resting in Club Gitmo “criminals”…
I find it hard to believe that anyone who considers themselves to be pro-life would condone this behavior. I have to think that there is a screw loose some place.
There are some pro-choicers out there that side with “Choice” because of extreme circumstances, like when a mother’s health is in jeopardy or rape. These are the pro-choicers that would never condone abortion or take part in such an act. Honestly, abortion doesn’t make sense at all considering there’s many couples in the world who cannot conceive and would love to adopt a healthy baby.
That’s my view. Disagree with me all you’d like, but if I were a husband and my wife’s life was in danger because of the pregnancy… I’d want the abortion to save her life and try to conceive another time. I don’t see how anyone can argue against the rape circumstance. There’s just no way a woman would want a 9-month reminder of the hell she went through. You all know I’m not shy about giving my opinion. So that’s it. You can’t just be ok with abortion only when it’s convenient for you.
For the record, this doctor Tiller was a late-term abortionist. I don’t like it, I think it’s wrong, and I may even go as far to call that murder…BUT that doesn’t mean he deserved to be killed. Like it or not, he wasn’t doing anything illegal in the eyes of the law.
How old was the shooter? Is he too old to be aborted?
THANK YOU!
Perfectly said. However no one will be able to explain it because it’s unexplainable, it’s complete bs.
Tristan,
I don’t usually agree with you, but what you said here was spot on:
Quote: “As usual with these sorts of political crusades, they just point out blatant hypocrisy. Republicans tend to be pro-life, yet they also tend to support war and capital punishment. Democrats tend to be pro-choice, but they feel that choices that contradict their agendas should be eliminated, such as the choice to buy a gas guzzling SUV, or the choice of who you want to hire, or whether or not you want to donate your money to buy food, housing, and health care for people you don’t know.”
Do any of you even know why late term abortions are even performed?
They are not done simply because the mother has decided she doesn’t want the baby.
They are done because the mother’s life is in extreme jeopardy due to encephalitis of the fetus.
Look that disease up, look up what it does to the fetus, look up what it does if the baby is brought to term or tried to be brought to term, both mother and baby will die, neither survive.
Dr. Tiller performed late term abortions to save mother’s lives, not to kill babies that were unwanted.
So these pro-lifers that were after him, hated him, completely misunderstood exactly what it was that he was doing in his clinic.
He was saving the lives of many women, not just killing babies that the mothers didn’t want.
So many people out there are completely misinformed on why abortions are performed. Yes, a lot of abortions are performed because they are unwanted pregnancies, but there are a lot of them that are performed because the fetus is nonviable, carrying it will harm the mother, or carrying it to term will kill the mother.
Kat,
Most pro-lifers don’t care if the mother’s life is in jeopardy. They’ll tell you that the life of the fetus is just as important as the life of the mother and they will not budge an inch…no matter how much scientific fact you throw at them. Conservatives are good at ignoring facts that discredit their personal agendas.
There you go again, Libby…do you expect anyone to be impressed when you use the word “scientific fact?” Maybe if Kat had actually provided a scientific fact, it would be worth discussing. It seems every time the libs use the word “science” there are a ton of lies associated with it.
Wow. How did I miss this one. Oh I didn’t, I just didn’t want to get dragged into Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice. I have a lot of thoughts on that subject but I’ll save it for another day.
Yeah I do find the circumstances rather odd. Someone killed a doctor for killing babies to show that killing babies is wrong? Wow. What great logic.
Heather - I’ve actually read that somewhere before. I thought it was rather funny/straight to the point.
Killing someone to prove that killing is wrong is rather stupid. How does that make sense? How does murdering (in cold blood) a doctor make you any better than him “murdering” while performing a medical treatment? (I use murdering in quotes here because I’m not gonna get into this debate!)
Once again CC, great post!
I find it amusing that the MEN on this board even say anything… NCD and Tristan, what would you do if…Oh that’s right! It’s not going to happen…because you don’t have ovaries! This is not a debate in which (REAL) men should be involved! That explains why NCD (a stay at home, while his wife goes to work, lazy buffoon) is the first to comment!
Sorry, Zig. I just don’t see drilling a hole in a baby’s skull and then sucking the brains out in order to end the baby’s life as a “medical procedure”….I’m not even sure Hitler would see it that way. But if you do, I guess that’s your “choice.” I’m a conservative, which means I care about the least among us. Why don’t you?
Yeah Don,
Just keep ignoring those pesky scientific facts like “Encephalitis” disease and it’s effects. Surely those diseases are made up by the evil liberal-agenda driven media.
You’re not a conservative, you’re a lunatic.
You’re brilliant Libby…A funny thing happens if you google encephalitis and human aboritions…nothing….it’s as if Kat made it up or heard one instance where it happened, and then she created her theory that “a lot” are performed because of that particular disease…you then say “it’s science…” and expect anyone that hears that word to be impressed. The comments left by you and Kat are void of both science and facts…just like most liberal “scientific facts.” That’s probably the biggest oxymoron to ever come out of your mouth.
I am not agreeing with the shooter, but for him, I guess, the end justifies the means. I assume he thinks that by killing the sinful doctor, he is saving the lives of innocent babies.
While murder is wrong, in the case of killing the doctor….The doctor was a murderer also. Killing babies as far along as 6 months is inconceivable to me.
No, I don’t think it needs to be argued on a scientific level. It can be argued on a comon sense level. NCD has no COMMON SENSE! “The Church” has stolen all his common sense and replaced it with tales of winged munchkins and virgin births… NCD, if you are such a man, why do you let your wife go to work each day, as you sit in your warm bed? You are not a CONSERVATIVE! You are a lazy buffoon!
Encephalitis is an acute inflammation of the brain. … Cerebral abscess is more common in patients with meningitis than encephalitis. …
Try Yahoo, NCD!
Okay Zig, let’s go with common sense…
how is jamming a metal hook into the brain of a human being with a beating heart, hands, fingers, toes, lungs, facial expressions, etc and sucking out his brains with the purpose of ending his life remotely connected to common sense? In any way, and under any circumstance?
…and Zig…I don’t want strangers to raise my children while I spend my days traveling and living in hotels…you see, that’s how people that work actually make a lot of money…so much that I can take 7 years off from working…you’ll never earn that in your stupid little union gov’t job where you make next to nothing becuase you’re not capable of doing anything except stealing taxpayers dollars.